The Empathy Circle meeting focused on building an empathy movement. Janna Weiss and Edwin Rutsch facilitated the session, emphasizing three-minute turns and reflective listening. Key points included the importance of empathy education, the challenges of defining empathy, and the need for practical applications. Participants shared personal experiences, such as Jillian's research on empathy in social psychology and Susan's work on moral virtue. Martin discussed the effectiveness of empathy in mediation. The group also explored strategies like Occupy Empathy and tailoring empathy training to specific needs, such as SMEs' challenges. The session highlighted the diverse approaches and the importance of listening in fostering empathy.
[ ] Develop and refine a one-hour empathy/active-listening program and supporting training materials based on the existing consulting practice, focusing on helping others feel heard, understood, respected, and cared for, and identifying key exercises and pages to include.
[ ] Look up the details of Matthew Ricci’s five-year-old sticker distribution experiment (the mindfulness intervention study) mentioned in the meeting for potential use in empathy-related work.
Edwin Rutsch and Janna Weiss discuss the structure of the empathy circle, including the use of a timer and the roles of speakers and listeners.
Janna Weiss explains the basic practice of empathy circles, emphasizing the importance of reflecting words and listening without interjecting.
The topic for the empathy circle is introduced: building an empathy movement.
Janna Weiss outlines the rules for speakers and listeners, including the use of three-minute turns and the importance of feeling heard.
Jillian shares her experience attending the last empathy summit and reflecting on her research related to empathy.
Jillian discusses the initial idea of focusing on educational models for empathy but then critically thinking about the implications of these models.
The conversation touches on the negative portrayal of empathy in social psychology and how it influenced Jillian's thinking.
Jillian mentions the book "Toxic Empathy" by Ali Miller and how it relates to the political use of empathy.
Susan shares her experience with human rights work and the personal challenges she faced.
Susan emphasizes the importance of morality, ethics, and universal human values in her work.
The conversation explores the need for empathy, compassion, and honesty in human interactions.
Susan discusses the combination of empathy circles with universal human values and her plans for future presentations.
Martin explains his decision not to lead with the word "empathy" in his career due to its unfamiliarity to some people.
Martin discusses the importance of using language that resonates with his audience and building rapport.
The conversation touches on the challenges of promoting empathy in academic and professional settings.
Martin shares his experience with a successful listening program that does not use the word "empathy" in its title.
Stuart expresses doubts about his ability to expand the empathy movement to a global scale.
The conversation explores the idea of empathy becoming fashionable and the role of morality and fashion in societal change.
Stuart and Martin discuss the criticisms and negativity surrounding the word "empathy" and its importance in defining the movement.
The conversation touches on the balance between empathy and the potential for over-empathizing.
Edwin discusses the challenges of defining empathy and the importance of modeling it through actions.
The conversation explores the idea of using simpler words like "listening" to describe empathy.
Edwin shares a personal story about the impact of empathy circles on everyday interactions.
The conversation touches on the need for a vocabulary to describe empathy and the importance of demonstrating its meaning.
Susan shares her research on affective polarization and how empathy can help bridge emotional divides.
The conversation explores a specific example of a conversation between people with opposing views on gun rights.
Susan emphasizes the importance of listening and allowing people to tell their stories without interruption.
The conversation touches on the deeper understanding and feeling into definition of empathy.
Martin shares his experience using empathy circles in mediation to facilitate better communication.
The conversation explores the effectiveness of empathy circles in resolving conflicts and the importance of public demonstrations.
Martin discusses the media attention and publicity that empathy circles have received.
The conversation touches on the potential for empathy circles to become a commodified product like other California innovations.
Janna shares her experience applying empathy circles in a legal setting with difficult people.
The conversation explores the importance of reflecting words and listening without attacking.
Janna discusses the impact of empathy circles on her ability to handle challenging situations.
The conversation touches on the broader application of empathy in various professional settings.
Stuart shares his experience working with small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) and the importance of understanding their needs.
The conversation explores the idea of tailoring empathy training to specific problems faced by SMEs.
Stuart discusses the importance of listening to clients and genuinely addressing their concerns.
The conversation touches on the broader implications of empathy training for different types of organizations.
Edwin Rutsch 0:01
This is the speaker's circle here. So you're here, okay, and you're facilitating.
Janna Weiss 0:10
Jenna, so, so Susan suggested a bio break. So if you would like to do that first, can we do that first?
Edwin Rutsch 0:19
Edwin, well, I would say is just go. If you need to take a bio break, just close your window and go. I mean, just turn off your video, and then for the and then it's whoever needs to go. Just go take care of yourself, or in any way, get some food or something. But I think we should just keep it going, otherwise we will lose too much time.
Janna Weiss 0:39
Okay, so I'm going to pull up this timer. I'm using the zoom app timer, and it's a three minute timer, and let's see. So Susan is experienced with empathy circles? Is there anyone else here who has experience with empathy circles besides Edwin and me? Jillian, okay, and Martin, too. All right. So Stuart, empathy circles. It's wonderful. Let me see started going. So I will model being the first listener. And yeah, I do what you don't like so much, Susan, which is just listen and reflect the words. This is a very basic foundational practice. And then the heart slowly opens as we learn to reflect and first hear, it's kind of as we're moving the gears and the driving and you know, for the first time, it's a little difficult, so we just make it very simple. And that's why the empathy circle practice is really an introductory practice that you can grow on to become whatever, like uzwire and Edwin and others. So who would like to be the first speaker?
Edwin Rutsch 1:43
And we're doing three minute turns, right, right.
Janna Weiss 1:47
Three Minute turns. And the topic is, how can we build an empathy movement, or whatever on your mind, or whatever's on your mind? Yes, and the empathy circle is a free speech space, so you can say whatever you want, and when you're reflecting, just reflect. Don't interject or question or say wow or agree or disagree. But when it's your turn to speak, your turn will come up next, if you're the listener, then you'll get to do all that. You can do whatever you want when it's when it's your turn, for three minutes, not for very long. And as the facilitator, when people are experienced, you're basically just a timekeeper. And when people are less experienced, if someone is really not getting the reflection, I might reflect what they said, if they're really feeling not heard after the second or third time, but I don't know if that will be an issue here. And if you're the speaker and you don't feel heard, you can restate, you know, again, what you said using other words or the same words, or just emphasize some point that you feel needs to be reflected. And if you're the listener, and the speaker is speaking too fast, too much like I'm doing now, you can ask them to pause and slow down so that you can just do chunks, you know, small pieces if you want. So say one or two ideas each time, and then pause. And the speaker pauses. And what else? Let's get into it. Let's just, let's go. Okay, we heard an explanation, and there's another one. So who's the Who's the first listener. This first speaker, Jillian,
Edwin Rutsch 3:23
was going. She said she was ready to go.
Janna Weiss 3:25
Great. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 3:27
And I was like, You already said it so, yeah. Well, this has just been so fun. So far. I attended the last empathy summit, but didn't speak, and so it's been fun to think a little more closely about my ideas of my research and how they've related to what everybody else has talked about.
Janna Weiss 3:46
So you've already participated in empathy summit, but you weren't a speaker, and it was really fun for you to reflect in between on how to build an empathy movement and how that relates to what you're doing in your research, and then to bring that forward as a speaker,
Speaker 1 4:01
yeah, definitely, when I first started, when I was thinking about this summit and thinking about strengthening the empathy movement, obviously my first thought was, well, we need more, you know, education on it. We need more practical behavioral things like, you know, in classrooms or in workshops or things like that. But then that's when I started hesitating, and started thinking about applying my model and what that what the implications of that would mean for more empathy education.
Janna Weiss 4:32
So I'm not quite sure if I got it, but you were thinking at first, one way of like, you know, that we need more behavioral models or something to bring it into the classroom, but then you thought how to or something like that, and you can fix it. Yes, okay, how you want more about how to what you're actually doing, and how you're actually thinking about empathy, and how you want to bring that into the empathy movement?
Speaker 1 4:56
Yes, yeah, that is exactly right. Yeah. With my my academic. The placement in social psychology. Like I said in my presentation, there's a lot of talk about what is wrong with empathy, or what we shouldn't be teaching people about empathy, and it really made me think critically about the empathy movement and how I felt about what these educational approaches or tools should look like.
Janna Weiss 5:20
So in social psychology now, in your area, there's all of this discussion and emphasis on all the toxic, sinful, terrible empathy. And so it really made you think critically about what the empathy movement really should look like, and what it can look like in a constructive way.
Speaker 1 5:37
Yeah, yeah. It made me think of Ali, best suckley's book on toxic empathy, and she talks about how progressives use the term empathy to claim that a lot of conservatives don't have empathy in a lot of their political positions. So coupling that where it was, it was messages to conservatives about hey, like you guys are empathetic, but liberals use that word against us, and then also how people approach it in academia. Now the against empathy stuff, I I just wondered if doing some something like, Hey, we're going to teach empathy, if that's ever going to become criticized, like, oh, but you don't know what it means to be empathetic. So how can you, you know, teach us about empathy as people are starting to associate it more negatively.
Janna Weiss 6:22
So reflecting on how toxic empathy, you know, how empathy is being hurled at conservatives, and for example, that how promoting an empathy movement might actually hurt. The Empathy movement, like you could be criticized and and people see some issue with it,
Speaker 1 6:45
yeah, yeah, you put it better than me. At the end, I feel heard. Thank you.
Janna Weiss 6:50
Thank you, Susan. You want to listen to me,
Unknown Speaker 6:56
but I would be delighted. I Yeah,
Janna Weiss 7:04
well, I guess I'll continue with moral virtue. You know, I really having a having had my own kind of difficult encounter with the gangster class.
Janna Weiss 7:22
You can reflect that, I'm just gonna do pieces.
Speaker 2 7:26
So you've had experience with the gangster class.
Janna Weiss 7:31
Yeah, I've done a lot of human rights, and I have paid a personal price for that.
Speaker 2 7:39
Whoa, human rights, and you have suffered from
Janna Weiss 7:44
that, yeah, so I really recognized that there was a huge need for morals, ethics, virtue, human values, universal human values, and have been passionate about getting that message out our common humanity?
Speaker 2 8:06
Whoa. So you've gotten the message out about values and humanity, but somehow it hasn't been received.
Janna Weiss 8:19
Well, it was from the human rights work that I and the harm that I see people doing, and the personal difficulty that I encountered as well, that really brought it home to me that we need morality and ethics and universal human values and, of course, empathy and compassion and love and kindness and honesty.
Speaker 2 8:42
Yeah, so we need this compassion and honesty, and I would say, heartfelt approach.
Janna Weiss 8:54
So even if I do something simple, like reading a settling meditation, you know, of mindfulness to the breath, I always mentioned that this is our moral backbone, and to never forget that we're strengthening and lengthening our moral backbone.
Speaker 2 9:11
Wow. So even teaching interesting mindfulness and meditation, this is our moral background, yeah,
Janna Weiss 9:23
and I've been combining the empathy with universal the empathy circles with universal human values.
Speaker 2 9:29
What a combination values and empathy.
Janna Weiss 9:35
And maybe for the next summit, maybe I'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 9:40
Ah, you can talk about that at the next summit.
Janna Weiss 9:44
Thank you too much time. Thank you. Bye
Unknown Speaker 9:57
Martin, i. Okay, are you available to be my
Unknown Speaker 10:02
listener? I will do my best.
Speaker 2 10:06
Oh Martin, so I have chosen in my career not to lead with the word empathy. I'm wondering if that's in the everyday people's vocabulary, right?
Martin Golder 10:31
So you've you've chosen not to use the word empathy, because a lot of people don't seem to know what that is, and so you might not hit home with it.
Speaker 2 10:39
I would like to use language that they use. I would like to respond to their particular needs and what they want in my title. So in
Martin Golder 10:55
Yeah, in your title, you want to have words that resonate with your audience,
Speaker 2 11:00
yes and as a psychology teacher, I learned that we need to be really careful to use rapport building words. I find that people can find things wrong with empathy. I don't find anything wrong with empathy, but I think it's a trigger word for some people, yes.
Martin Golder 11:34
So the reason you don't want to use the word empathy is because it can trigger your audience for some some people, so you prefer to use words that resonate with them, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 11:47
Like my listening program went big time with universities and corporations, and they know they want to be listened to.
Martin Golder 12:01
Yeah. So, so your listening program, which doesn't use the word empathy, resonated and went over well with the various audiences that you have.
Speaker 2 12:13
Just to clarify, I use the word empathy in the process of providing skills, but I don't lead with it,
Martin Golder 12:25
right, right? So empathy is embedded in the program, but it's not used in the title.
Speaker 2 12:31
What a great paraphrase. Thank you. I'm not clear about what the desired outcome for the participants of empathy circles
Martin Golder 12:46
is so interesting. So you're not really sure with empathy circles what the desired outcome is for the for the participants,
Speaker 2 12:53
I don't see them prepared to go out and use this in everyday conversations. I understand they get what it's like to be heard and understood, but can they really do it?
Martin Golder 13:08
So yes, the participants have the experience of being heard and understood, but does that transfer into the everyday life outside of the empathy circle.
Speaker 2 13:21
Thank you so much. Okay, speaker, that's really, really great.
Martin Golder 13:29
Okay, thank you. Well, Stuart, hello, right, right there I can see. Would you be my listener? I'd be honored. Okay, well, I must say that I don't really have a lot of ideas about how to, you know, move the empathy movement into a larger, more comprehensive, universal organization that has 8 billion people in it, right?
Speaker 3 14:04
So I'm hearing that you don't have any ideas about tackling such a big challenge of that many people and building things to scale,
Martin Golder 14:14
right, right? Moving up, perhaps that's not one of my skill sets. However, one can't help but noticing that the that empathy, it seems to be on the edge of being pretty fashionable, you know, and and one of the things that starts something on a big role is like moving. I mean, they say leaders only lead in two things, and that's morality and fashion.
Speaker 3 14:43
So morality and fashion may be around the word, empathy is changing, and maybe, maybe the time is now, and the time is ready to be able to take on this kind of challenge. I'm here.
Martin Golder 14:55
Yes, yeah, perhaps, perhaps the negativity that we experience. Interesting. And some of the books that Julian was referring to, and, and, and certainly, Edwin has talked about quite a bit. Maybe, you know that's those are sort of necessary inputs to the to the talk in the society about, you know, what is this empathy thing? I like Edwin's focus on, let's get to what it is. What is the definition, right?
Speaker 3 15:27
So, so the criticisms, the negativity around the word may actually be interesting symptoms of a discussion actually happening, and a discussion that is needed in order to add some more definition and order for people to work out where they stand?
Martin Golder 15:42
Yes, I think so. And you know, are there some instances, as you know, Bloom and others refer to of you know, when you know, we empathize so much that we go over the top? I don't know whether that would be into what you might call the Super woke character nature of some of the arguments that one hears out there on today.
Speaker 3 16:07
Yeah, it's, I'm hearing that there are, there are perceptions of it being too much from you for words like super woke. But also, are these real things? Can we really go too far in one direction,
Martin Golder 16:22
yes, are they real? Okay, that's interesting. I hadn't Are they real? They certainly are real in the sense that they're out there and we're talking about them. When I think about my experiences of you know, as I mentioned, what I sort of joke about having my empathy surgically removed in British boarding school, you know, and then refining it again. Those those experiences kind of suggest that empathy is something very, very real, and that is very, very important.
Speaker 3 17:00
So empathy is something that is very real, something very important, and your sort of joke, but not entirely a joke. About having it removed from British boarding school is part of that.
Unknown Speaker 17:17
Okay? Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 17:20
It's so hard not to say what you want to say, isn't it?
Edwin Rutsch 17:28
So you can select your listener. Stuart Edwin, okay, listening, and I was hearing that it's hard not to respond to people when they talk. So, yeah, yes,
Speaker 3 17:45
I have, I have a chapter in my book about the abuse that I suffered when I was young, a very different kind. And I sometimes wonder how much people who've been through traumatic things in their in their youth become interested in empathy as a thing, and want to, want to work with people around these kinds of topics.
Edwin Rutsch 18:05
Yeah, so you, you've written about your experience with abuse, and you're just wondering, you know other people, I didn't quite catch that last part,
Speaker 3 18:16
if I meet quite a lot of people who work in roughly in this field, you know, in the field of empathy, who have childhood experiences that maybe perhaps make them dwell what is and are drawn to this kind of work.
Edwin Rutsch 18:35
So people who have had abuse like like you did, you're thinking that maybe they are the ones that are drawn to this kind of work experience,
Speaker 3 18:45
a little not everyone. Perhaps what I actually want to say, it's interesting with both Susan's point earlier of you have to meet people where they are and, you know, dressing the right way, learning the right language to talk to business people and tackling the problems they have. That really resonates with me because I spent a long time really resisting that, you know, wanting I want to look like, how like I want to look. But actually having a kind of a mask can really be helpful.
Edwin Rutsch 19:24
So you're just addressing what Susan was talking about, that you sort of want to meet people where they are, if you're in business, you want to dress business like and others. And you'd actually had sort of resisted that, but you seems like sounds like you coming around to that idea, yeah.
Speaker 3 19:39
And for me, it's linked to what Gillian said. I love this framing of empathy as a muscle, as something that is about strength and power. I know it's it's a deeper model than that, but this idea of just projecting strength is. That, you know, there's a lot of resistance with the organizations I've worked with, the things I do with them, the physical empathy things are they will say things like, Oh, I'm not susceptible to these kinds of things. So I'm not. They see it as a kind of weakness. And what I tend to do is tell them up front that some of the best people I've worked with with physical empathy are actors, athletes, musicians, dancers, right? What I've done there is by naming athletes, actors and musicians. Those are the hero occupations. You know, when teenagers are a fans of those three things, those are the big ones. You know, it's what everybody wants to be like. So by framing empathy as a skill, a hard skill that you can be good at, I think is one way in, and it's my reflection on the great stuff that both Susan and Jillian
Edwin Rutsch 21:01
said, Okay, so, you know, a lot of people think empathy is a weakness, and you try to frame it as a strength by saying that actors and and sports people, and, you know, certain groups are are very empathic, and that sort of makes It makes the case for its benefit,
Speaker 3 21:20
kind of, because I'm being very specific about physical empathy.
Edwin Rutsch 21:26
Oh, and this is about physical empathy that you're kind of talking about the physical
Unknown Speaker 21:33
you know, those people as a group,
Edwin Rutsch 21:35
and people you've worked with, yeah, so that was the time, and I guess I'm up and speak to you, Jenna, since you were the now, who said no, Julian, Jillian was the first speaker, so I'll speak to Jillian. Yeah, you're still muted. The, yeah, the, I guess I'm going to address, I think that would be a good topic. Is, what are the desired outcomes of an empathy circle. Maybe should have an empathy circle on that. And I'll just mention we just did a eight hour empathy circle marathon. So for eight hours we just did and so maybe that would be a good topic for another marathon.
Speaker 1 22:18
Yeah, so you're thinking about doing an empathy circle, and why are we doing an empathy circle and maybe doing doing another really long set of empathy circles, or one really long empathy circle again?
Edwin Rutsch 22:31
And I do know there's an outcome that comes from these empathy circles. Somebody, just for example, told the story. She said that she was driving with her son to San Francisco from Santa Barbara, and her son said something about the family that triggered her, and then she started getting very defensive. And then, and then her son said, yeah, yeah, whatever. So kind of just dismissing everything in the conversation it was coming to an end. And then she she said, Oh, I do empathy circles. So she remembered her empathy, and she started empathically listening to him, and she said that the conversations totally turned around, and it was like a great day that they had because, you know, she so, I think that's one of the benefits or outcomes,
Speaker 1 23:19
yeah, so you've seen outcomes in the past of empathy circles, such as this example with the the woman and her kid, and how he said something that immediately made her defensive and made her wanted to respond in ways. You know that we don't do an empathy circles, but instead, she thought about her training there and learning to listen before talking.
Edwin Rutsch 23:40
And the other was, is, is empathy. You know, I'm all for sort of meeting people where they are, but you got to have a vocabulary too. And, and I mean, every word becomes contested. Words like freedom and justice are just as contested as empathy. And so I'm kind of like you just have to build, build the case for it and and model it. And, you know, so I kind of stick with the word, but I also use the word listening, because that's the simpler, simpler word. But I think you just have to sort of defend the word there.
Speaker 1 24:19
So when thinking about, how do we define or operationalize empathy? It's really more about modeling what we mean by empathy than trying to kind of argue
Edwin Rutsch 24:28
about it. Well, it's more. It's more the let's give up on the word empathy, because it's too, too many people disagree with it, it, it's like instead, let's kind of articulate what it means and demonstrate what it means because, because all the words can become contested meaning, people argue over the what the meaning is.
Speaker 1 24:51
I see, yeah, so rather than just kind of throwing out the word or the idea of defining it entirely, thinking more about the the process. Process of showing you know what we consider empathy. But I'm
Edwin Rutsch 25:05
going to say one last thing is, even Clinton, he said what it depends on what the meaning of is, is, the word is, was contested, right? Sure, you just want to reflect that. And then I feel heard. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 25:29
So what do any of these words mean? Anyway, I feel heard. Okay. What about Susan? Maybe my listener. I love that awesome All right outcomes of empathy circles. I like that idea like, what are we strengthening the empathy movement for? What's the purpose? Something that I have kind of gravitated toward in my research is studying affective polarization and how we can depolarize people's views or emotions about the other side, not necessarily their political views, but how they feel about people who oppose them.
Speaker 2 26:11
Yes, so you're really wanting to work with polarization and how people can use empathy to bridge that gap.
Speaker 1 26:25
Yes, exactly. I've seen some cool work on it. One of my favorite examples is two people who were sitting on a table, and they were talking about gun rights, and one person was very pro gun rights, everybody should have a gun, and the other person was no, nobody should have a gun. And they talked about their stories, and the person who was pro gun rights was talking about how someone had, you know, broken into his home, and, you know, tried to rob them and everything, and, like, tried to hurt his family, but, you know, since he had a gun, like, he was able to protect them. And then someone on the other side had a kid who was impacted in some way by a school shooting, and so in their eyes, you know, they were saying, look like, no guns at all, but it was that like conversation that was able to spark whatever that like feeling into the other one is, like, when you're just saying, like, No, I think everyone should have guns, versus no one should have guns, you're not getting that like, oh my gosh, I feel you. I hear you.
Speaker 2 27:16
Ah, so the two sides of guns, we should have guns, no, no, came to life when people told their stories and they got to understand one another better.
Speaker 1 27:38
Exactly. I think one of the benefits of something like this empathy circle is, although it might be the hardest part for a lot of us, is that listening like, not putting in your views, not arguing, not saying, Well, you know that point depends on this point, it's just full time for the person speaking to like be able to tell their story and not feel like they have to get it out quickly or get defensive or something like that, right?
Speaker 2 28:01
So when you provide empathy, people have a chance to continue and go deeper with what they would like to say. It gets more interesting.
Speaker 1 28:15
Yes, yeah. So that reminds me of the the feeling into definition of empathy. Again, I center a lot of my thoughts on what Empathy means around that, just because it was the first definition of it and it like, like you said, I like the word that you use, deeper, like understanding deeper, the deeper you can go, the farther you're feeling into you know.
Speaker 2 28:35
Yeah. So you have found that by providing empathy, people really become more alive and deeper, and helps you not take over.
Speaker 1 28:50
Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's perfect. I feel heard.
Speaker 2 28:53
Yeah, oh, so how about Jillian be my listener. Choose somebody else. Stuart, please. Hello, hello. So I feel like I have demonstrated less repeating what the person said and trying briefly to get to the essence of it as a paraphrase. And I'm just thinking that that's closer to the skills that people could take into their everyday life.
Speaker 3 29:42
So I hear that simply being a machine that repeats what people have said isn't as valuable as responding in a way that a human does through your full person, rather than just the words are.
Speaker 2 30:00
I'm going to change my topic. The key to my having this fabulous consulting program whole career was having a one hour program, and I would love to develop a one hour program for all of us.
Speaker 3 30:22
So I'm hearing that you have this incredibly successful and rewarding career. There's a sense of legacy here that you'd like to see that live on and be developed for everybody.
Speaker 2 30:38
It's like, how do you create something that grabs people and they want more. I have some beginning thoughts on that. What is it like to help other people feel heard and understood and respected and cared about
Speaker 3 31:02
so the sense, the feeling of genuinely understanding people and helping them and get that when they when they really felt heard. What is that feeling like, right?
Speaker 2 31:19
And how could we deliver that? And we need to avoid trigger words. Even compassion can get a little weird sometimes.
Speaker 3 31:33
So the core of what we what we need to be delivering, is an emotion that people feel, the feeling of being heard, and we need to cut out anything that might distract them from that, including these, these troubles and words.
Speaker 2 31:51
I want to have people heard and understood and respected and cared about, and I want the same thing. Let's see how we can put that in an hour long speech and sell it bring us back
Speaker 3 32:12
so all of that that was said before building up to this, this sense, this feeling that we want to give people, how do we encapsulate that in an hour long speech, and crucially, sell it.
Speaker 2 32:25
Have people bring us in for more? Thank you. I think our time is up,
Unknown Speaker 32:32
and have people bring us in for more?
Unknown Speaker 32:39
Yes. I can continue here.
Edwin Rutsch 32:46
Stewart's turn. Yeah, is to keep please.
Unknown Speaker 32:52
I'll continue on that topic.
Edwin Rutsch 32:54
Then select your listener.
Unknown Speaker 32:57
Oh, sorry, did um, Martin, would you? Would you kindly be my speaker? Martin? Am I listener?
Speaker 3 33:11
Yep. Excuse me, tired right now, this question of how do we charge people, I think, is really interesting one for for our services, I was involved in something back in the early 90s, when we were training the unemployed in HTML, web design, the web design skills, yeah, and we had this problem where people would sign up for every single course and Then either not turn up for any of them or turn up for one or two. So we charge them five pounds for as many as they liked, and then they would turn up. And I think Gurdjieff talks about psychological investment. You know, you go to the guy at the end of the road and say, What's the meaning of life? And he says, the cherry tree in the garden makes no sense. That's just BS. But you fly to India, you have to travel to Pune, you have to bathe yourself every day for two weeks. And then the guru says the cherry tree in the garden that lands, yes.
Martin Golder 34:13
How does one charge and why does one charge for the services that we might be offering along these lines, because when you charge the message, people show up and the message seems to get through. And when you don't charge, they take it way too lightly.
Speaker 3 34:38
Exactly that people, there's a tendency for people to perceive free things as being exactly worth that. So it isn't about making money, it's about just enough so that people have skin in the game and really want to be there and join it. I'm not saying this is true for every single situation. There are certain situations where giving things for free is. Absolutely the right way to do it. But we need to. We need to ask ourselves, you know, what is happening? We if we do psychologically charge and if we don't
Martin Golder 35:09
charge, right? So certain situations, it is appropriate to give things away for free, for information, whatever it is, but in other situations, having an amount that is to trigger the response of the person who's receiving, rather than the it's not about making money necessarily for the for the giver. It's more about the value that is then ascribed to it by the receiver.
Speaker 3 35:36
Yeah, exactly. So some years ago, when I was validating my techniques. And the other thing is, you know, I started talking about contentious words. I started my workshops because they come from the world of stage mind reading. So I started them as mind reading workshops. And it was working through the with the NHS, where they said, Can we call these empathy workshops? We think that's actually closer to what you're doing. So I think I've moved from a more contentious and worse word, but I I did that for a free year. I was trying to validate my technique, so I offered to do them for expenses, except for organizations who I felt had money, I would say to them, give me some money, and I'll use that money to be able to do free workshops for organizations who can't afford it. Some organizations understood that, and it worked well. Others were completely baffled by the idea, and they would just say, please just tell us how much money you want. Don't confuse us with this weird business model.
Martin Golder 36:40
Okay, that was quite a bunch of little complex financial ideas in there, but, and I think I missed the word mind greasing Mind Mind wedding, mind reading, mind reading. Oh, I see mind although
Speaker 3 36:57
I do want to become a mind greaser, and that might be my whole new branding.
Martin Golder 37:03
Okay, so, yeah, so, so sometimes different words hit people in different ways and and certainly different financial arrangements can be appropriate or inappropriate at different times. Yeah, yes, thank you. Okay, okay, well, I guess I'll go on to Jana then, okay, and, and I still don't have much in the way of any idea how to build the movement. Any you know bigger, I just have no idea. I mean, I think California is the sort of place where most of the world's great ideas get commodified and sold for the rest of the world. And so perhaps it's appropriate that that's sort of the source of of all these organizations and maybe, maybe empathy, the empathy circle, the empathy movement is, you know, along the lines of vest or or one of those other famous California products.
Janna Weiss 38:16
So you really still don't have any idea how to expand the empathy movement to 8 billion people and and thinking that some great ideas come from California and get commodified, like asked and maybe empathy circles is like that, yeah.
Martin Golder 38:36
I mean, it occurs to me that that does seem to be one of California's main products, and and and empathy circles. There's a great, great product, if I can say that for a moment, that I've certainly used, you know, in quite a few situations, I'll be in a mediation, mediation, and I'll kind of, I'll just kind of slip it into, you know, empathy circle mode, and just say, well, let's try a little exercise here, you know. We'll give you three minutes each thing, you know. And you were quite and I just kind of introduced it like that, real casual. And it's actually turned out, it is actually very, very effective, I must say. And I'm I've been definitely a fan of Edwin and his work and the work at the empathy center for quite some time.
Janna Weiss 39:29
You say that the empathy circle you're referring to, it is a product, and you found it quite useful in mediation. And sometimes, when things aren't necessarily going so well, you'll sneak it in. You'll just slip it in, like, Okay, now, three minutes, you three minutes, you like that, and it really helps a lot. And you're a great fan of empathy circles and the Edwin's work, absolutely.
Martin Golder 39:50
Yeah, that's true. So how to make it bigger? How to make it bigger? This is where I other. I mean, what's happening right here? I mean, these are obviously the step. Sort of have come and, and, and I'm sure that the the empathy center mailing list is an awful lot bigger than it used to be and, and I must say, coming on here and finding people from you know all over the world that show up for these little zooms is very encouraging, a sign that you know it's there, it's there. And now maybe this is its moment,
Janna Weiss 40:29
and you're appreciating this summit as a as a significant contribution, perhaps a step towards building the empathy movement and people coming from all the over the world. Is really heartwarming and encouraging, and yeah, maybe we're on the right track.
Martin Golder 40:46
Thank you. Yeah, I think my earphones are telling me they're giving up the ghost here after three and a half hours, or three hours, so I'm gonna just find to do airplanes. But thank you very much.
Janna Weiss 40:57
Thank you so much. Really a joy. Thank you. Edwin, listening anymore, so there's a story that I like to share for Susan. Also I explained that I have some difficulty. So it with these most difficult people that I'm litigating with.
Edwin Rutsch 41:28
Are you just going to share that there's some people you have difficulty and you're litigating with?
Janna Weiss 41:33
And yeah, and after I've been doing empathy circles for like, eight months, I requested a meeting to solve some problem with them. And after I spoke for a while, explaining, you know, who I was and our situation, I recognized that I didn't want the director to just launch into her counter attack, her attack, and I wanted to be heard.
Edwin Rutsch 42:00
So you took the pardon the empathy circles for eight months or so, and then you were in this group with the lawyers or litigators, and you really, you shared, and you're you realize you didn't want to be attacked by the other side.
Janna Weiss 42:17
Yeah, it was the director and an assistant of an organization, and that there's the other party to the litigation, not the lawyers themselves, and and so I said, Would you be willing to reflect what I just said?
Edwin Rutsch 42:33
So you asked them to reflect what you're saying.
Janna Weiss 42:37
And she did a little bit. And then at the end of the 45 minute meeting, when she became so aggressive and attacking and just saying, I want you to agree to, I want you to agree to. I want you to agree it was the repetition that caught my attention that she wasn't being heard, and so I didn't tell her why I could never agree to that, or what was wrong with it, or why it was a stupid idea. You know, I just said, Would you like me to reflect what you just said?
Edwin Rutsch 43:06
So in the discussion, she was saying, I just want you to agree with this, she's just repeating yourself about wanting to agree to it, and you're realizing that's probably a signal that she didn't feel heard. And for in that case, you offered to reflect back your understanding of what she was saying,
Janna Weiss 43:23
so I just reflected her words exactly you want me to agree to XYZ. That was it. I never agreed to it, and I got my two requests from the meeting, and that was the end. So even though that you know this is not a stated goal of the empathy circle, but this is how I was able to apply it when you know that I don't know what to say when the rubber hit the road, or whatever you want to say, yeah.
Edwin Rutsch 43:48
So this is actually how, from practical what you learned in the empathy circles, you applied it in that situation, and you had just reflected back, or she had, you'd reflected back what she said, and it seemed to satisfy her, just to be heard, even though you didn't agree to make the agreement. Thanks. Okay, thanks. I'll Susan, can I speak to you? Please? I'm interested. Yeah, so to build the empathy movement. There's couple things. One, I think, is having a training curriculum is is one thing that would help. I'm really excited that you're wanting to be involved, because you have so much experience, and it's really not my, you know, expertise, and so glad to have people who are really knowledgeable about training involved?
Speaker 2 44:42
Yeah, so maybe my experience could help us together along the way.
Edwin Rutsch 44:52
And the other idea that I have is what I call occupy empathy for better terms right now is to actually. The like Occupy Wall Street. I think that we can take our empathy tent out and occupy a space, you know, by a government building demanding that we that that, that we need a culture of empathy, that the left and right need to bridge to their divides. And we're here to sort of model how to do that, but we're but it's out in public and sort of gets the publicity like Occupy did
Speaker 2 45:28
Wow occupy empathy, where people really get a chance to experience how this can work with polarized people. It's exciting.
Edwin Rutsch 45:43
And so I actually checked out at no kings rally in Sacramento. I was checking out the rally because I I've been there multiple times, you know, with the empathy tent, to different events, but I'm thinking that would be a good place to start. You know, set up. We're actually camping out and probably get arrested and so forth. We need people who are willing to get arrested. And we say that we want Republican and Democrat legislatures at the state capitol to have empathy circles, and we're not leaving until they do. So
Speaker 2 46:19
you're a fit in, about getting people who are polarized to participate in empathy circles and to bridge the divide and even risk getting arrested, yeah,
Edwin Rutsch 46:37
and that's really where we've gotten the most media is With the empathy tent, out in public. I mean, we were on Fox and Friends. And, you know, bright part wrote about it, the newspapers, LA Times, Sacramento, bee, TV shows. In fact, when you know, Bill was talking about being at the Democratic convention, we got on TV there, interviewed. And, you know, so it's really being out in public, being activist, nonviolent demonstrations, that gets the attention. I think that's kind of we need
Speaker 2 47:11
hearing, is that you've gotten media attention for the empathy tent, for being out in political situations. And this feels like another point on how to grow the movement.
Edwin Rutsch 47:25
I feel very hurt. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 47:31
Let's see. Marjana, are you available to listen soon?
Janna Weiss 47:43
I'd be happy to
Speaker 2 47:45
Well, I am finding myself excited by this conversation, and I have more ideas for this one hour meeting, and that's enough for now. So you're
Janna Weiss 48:00
excited about this conversation, and you're getting more ideas for the one hour package, yes.
Speaker 2 48:08
And I'm also thinking, Oh, for this topic, I would have this page from a training, or I would have this exercise, and I would so love to share. How we expand this so people have the everyday skills and the understanding of not taking over, which is a big deal.
Janna Weiss 48:35
So you things are coming to mind, like what exercise you'd like to share and what page you'd like to share, and you know what to share, so that people don't take over.
Speaker 2 48:46
Yes, so many people are focused on what they know, and unless they can quiet their self talk, which is very difficult,
Janna Weiss 49:01
so people are really focused on what they know, and it's really hard for them to quiet their own inner their own self talk and wanting to be you know what they're going to say next.
Speaker 2 49:13
Oh yeah, Jenna, are we all wanting attention? Aren't we all wanting to be smart, and how we need to cut through that, to really notice how much we care about other people and open our hearts so
Janna Weiss 49:35
everyone wants to be smart and everyone we need to really open our hearts, and we really Need to show how much we care about other people.
Speaker 2 49:44
Yeah, and I think there are several turning points in how we have people realize the cultural pattern and our own particular. Particular needs that get in the way of compassion, empathy, deep interest in somebody else.
Janna Weiss 50:11
And so we need to have deep interest in others and to get past our own cultural viewpoints and our own I don't know what else, Pisces or whatever.
Speaker 2 50:22
Yeah, thank you. I feel really heard and understood. I think we need to help people get out of their own way in order to be empathic, and we can do that.
Janna Weiss 50:38
And you're saying that we need to help each other and ourselves get out of our own way so that we can become empathic.
Speaker 2 50:46
Yeah, thank you so much. I really feel your caring and your interest and your listening,
Janna Weiss 50:55
and you're appreciating my listening and my caring, I guess something like that.
Speaker 2 51:01
It means so much to me, especially when I was so enthusiastic, and I just saw you light up, that was an amazing reflection, and
Janna Weiss 51:13
you appreciated the am I reflecting somehow about your enthusiasm?
Speaker 2 51:18
Yeah, you don't need words for that. I think we do a lot with our grunts and our facial expression and our matching their feelings and our Yep,
Janna Weiss 51:37
and you think we do a lot with our body and our facial expressions and our grants and the way that we reflect each other, and it's not something that we teach here. Yeah, I still have three minutes, three minutes. Stuart, you want to listen to me? You're muted. Maybe. Maybe Jillian hasn't gotten a well, I don't know, hasn't gone well. You're muted.
Unknown Speaker 52:07
Stuart, yes, I'm here. Sorry I can I can grunt.
Janna Weiss 52:15
No, I can hear, Oh, in terms of bias, I I like to share Matthew recars talk, how to let altruism be your guide, right?
Speaker 3 52:31
So there's in terms of bias, there's a talk I didn't catch the name, that's about understanding that,
Janna Weiss 52:38
yeah, how to in how to let altruism be your guide. Matthew ricai is a French name, M, A, T, T, H, I, E, U, I guess ri, CA, r, d, you don't have to repeat that. There's a five minute or so segment, four minutes with a sticker test.
Speaker 3 52:59
Okay? Matthew Kai, I think I'm hearing there's a sticker test in this that's important.
Janna Weiss 53:11
Yeah. So they went into a classroom of five year olds, and they had the kids distribute stickers to their favorite to the kids in the class, and they then counted how many stickers who got what, after mapping the relationships of the kids to each other, right?
Speaker 3 53:32
So this, this was a game experiment where kids have to give stickers to the people they like the most.
Janna Weiss 53:39
Well, no, they had to give it to the kids in the class and, you know, or to different people. They had to give it to their best friend and to, I don't know how they, how they actually set up the experiment exactly, but they had, they gave the stickers to their other classmates, and then they measured it at the beginning of the experiment, before and after.
Speaker 3 54:00
Okay, so they gave stickers to their classmates, and then they measured what it was like before the stickers were given out and after the stickers were
Janna Weiss 54:08
given and after the intervention, the intervention was a few weeks of like five minutes a day, or something, of mindfulness, of meditation, mindfulness training.
Speaker 3 54:20
Okay, so they took different groups and had them give out stickers. But some groups had mindfulness intervention.
Janna Weiss 54:30
So the kids, at the beginning, before the before they learned mindfulness, they were giving most of the stickers, like 70% to their best friend, and then the child who was sick and the child they didn't like and the neutral child weren't getting very many stickers for each child, and they knew who that was for each child in the classroom, right?
Speaker 3 54:50
So before any mindfulness intervention, the behaviors of sticker giving tended to be to people they liked, and there. Were certain kids who weren't getting as many as others right,
Janna Weiss 55:03
and at the end of the few weeks of mindfulness training, the kids then distributed stickers, and it was all equal they no longer were. Were biased that everybody was getting the sick child, the neutral child, the child they didn't like and their best friend were getting equal stickers, right?
Speaker 3 55:21
Yes. So, so after the mindfulness intervention sticker giving behaviors became about parity and evenness and equality, and everybody got the same, yeah, thanks.
Janna Weiss 55:33
So I think for the empathy movement, that whatever we can, whatever works,
Speaker 3 55:40
yes, so for the empathy movement, whatever works is going to be key? Yeah, thanks. That
Unknown Speaker 55:49
was fantastic. I'm looking up the experiment later. Is it time for me to go?
Edwin Rutsch 55:58
Yes, it's up to you. We have time for one more. So if you want, Gillian hasn't gone for a while. Do you want to speak to her? Yes, that
Speaker 3 56:09
would be great. Gillian, yes. Are you up for it?
Unknown Speaker 56:13
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3 56:15
We're not tired. We're not no, we're not one more. This, whatever works thing is, actually chimes with what was, what's been on my mind through this, because we're talking about different strategies. Should we use the word empathy, or should we avoid the word empathy? Should we seek out people like ourselves and work with them, or should we seek out people who are very, very different
Speaker 1 56:44
and try to work with Yes. So that's something that's been on your mind, of what will work, and something that kind of feels overarching to what we've been talking about a lot in terms of, do we call it empathy or not, or who do we interact with or incentivize things like that?
Speaker 3 56:59
Yeah. And of course, what one thing I'm really learning here is that it's about listening to other people. It's about understanding their perspective. And if we're going to do that with ourselves and to ourselves amongst this group, then it's going to be a disparate group with lots of different strategies and different ways of attacking the problem,
Speaker 1 57:24
because we prioritize listening so much with this empathy movement and empathy circle, naturally, there's going to be a lot of different perspectives and input coming in, yeah,
Speaker 3 57:37
and I think that's a strength, you Know, that give that, that gives us different ways of attacking things. You know, we have a people saying that, like Susan saying, I don't mention empathy upfront, but once I'm in there, you know, this is like a gorilla movement. It's like a get behind, get behind the enemy lines. And then, then I'll start mentioning and then I'll start talking about it, or, you know, different ways, and then other people really focused on No, we need to change the public understanding of the word empathy itself. And these aren't incompatible approaches. These are, these are just two different modes of help, sure.
Speaker 1 58:20
So in thinking about how to strengthen the empathy movement or push it forward, what strategies we use to appeal to the masses of people who are looking for different things when it comes to training empathy, there's naturally going to be a lot of different strategies that we have in this circle, because we do want to prioritize listening to other strategies and making them feel heard.
Speaker 3 58:42
So I have a business advisor. And one thing he did was he said, if I want to branch out into working with SMEs more, because I tend to work with large, quite large organizations. He said, talk, talk to lots and lots of SMEs. Listen to them, find out what their problems are, and then ask yourself, genuinely, can your empathy training help with any of those you know? So I ended up with a list of the 10 Things really facing SMEs in the UK right now, and I've been trying to focus my training around those things.
Speaker 1 59:20
So your business advisor kind of oriented you toward a like a user prioritized model when it comes to your strategy with all of this, where you focus on their needs first, as opposed to what you're trying to do,
Speaker 3 59:38
exactly which, of course, is ironic, because that's what empathy is all about.
Speaker 1 59:46
Hey, lots of diverse perspectives. That's what we like, and that's our strength. Thank you very much.
Edwin Rutsch 59:53
We're going to be closing the rooms. I got to go back to the main room to debrief, so I. We have one. Let me see here, I'm going to hit the close all room so we we have one minute. So just want to thank everyone in the circle you know, for taking part, which looks like shorty left, yeah. So it'll move us automatically over there, or you can go leave breakout room. I.